NARMA Oct 25 2023, Minutes
Members PRESENT
David
Edwin
Bichen
Nima
Luke
Members MISSING
Aldwin (Joined Late, noted in minutes)
Zac
Agenda Listing
Update on current open projects
Selection of new dates for NAO
ARML representation WRC
Management thoughts for open meeting
Update on current open projects
The qualifer document, Map stuffs, Volunteer stuffs, and meeting cadence.
Qualifier Document
David: We talked about it: we approved it: did we release the qualifier doc?
Bichen: We gotta talk ARML first to see if it is a part of it.
David: OK, we have that talk and then we release.
Luke: Confirm who releases it? confirm where?
David: For the where, I (David) put a copy on website for download
Luke: So who's announcing it?
David: It should be the authors, it's their work.
Bichen: Both of the authors aren't here.
David: It was Bichen and Aldwin. Those two should do it.
Crosstalk: Bichen and Aldwin will release it ASAP, David will help get it on the site, they will post it on the Narma discord as well
Club Map Updates
David: Need to get info from Aldwin, no response back, gotta hear from him
(Post meeting note: This info was released at the open meeting. All clubs that have requested have been added, Jellicode list is on there with express Jellicode permission)
Board Expansion via Volunteers
David: Doc looks good, should we release?
Luke: We have things for them to do, right? yeah
Bichen: Should we vote?
Luke: For things where you think no one will have a problem, do a voice vote. "This is what we are going with. Does anyone have a problem or want to abstain or anything?" If no one speaks up it's unanimous for all attending, if someone is like "no" or "well.." then we open debate and then go person by person.
- Unanimous Vote to approve -
Meeting Cadence
David: We have all that handled, our cadence is good, let's keep going with monthly Closed then Open.
- Unanimous Vote to approve -
Luke: Any incoming questions, discord, email, that we need to bring up?
David: No it is all covered in this meeting
Selection of new dates for NAO
David: April? we talked about this?
Edwin: It was a murky discussion, Bichen and I were assuming MLK Weekend (Jan-13-15 2024), that was our submission, if its not then tour submissions are out the window. Can't be Easter b/c Sakura con?
David: I think people said Jan/Feb/Mar are too soon, so April?
Crosstalk: That's real soon
Edwin: Its too close for a seat on MLK. When is good enough notice, that WRC/Gemma would approve?
David: Three months after notice. So back in September, MLK was ok. Now it's not. (international people travel lead time, etc etc) We can't do a non-quota seat. Do we want to do a quota seat?
Sidebar: Aldwin joins
Aldwin: Thought it was 8 central not 8 Eastern
Luke: You want a catchup?
Aldwin: Later
David: Various sentiment is that, with interpersonal convos he's had, that NAO seat giveaway is not good. What do you think?
Luke: Since this is info from your private convos, can you elaborate?
David: Its a non-quota seat. Doesn't come from us comes from WRC
Luke: Oh, a straight seat all the way in for one tourney, not just an invite to nationals?
David: Correct.
Crosstalk: that is a lot, but hey its WRC's seat and they are in charge, how clear was this if we had to confirm with David
Aldwin: They (people David is talking to) just don't understand
Edwin: It's WRC's seat and choice not ours, so where is the problem
David: Should we take the people I'm talking to into consideration?
Edwin: You need to clearly communicate the prize and the quota situation
Luke: When they voiced concern, did you then clarify all that with them then? then what did they say?
David: They still didnt like it
Luke: so this was one person talking to you?
David: One made the argument, others feel that it is not fair
Edwin: I spoke with a/an (redacted to "non-american" to protect identity) non-American player that travels here, is this a serious competition? or a networking jubilee?
Luke: The WRC? starts like an open in the US, but with a much larger top cut and way better paredown format
Edwin: They are looking at it like a super serious competition
Aldwin: I wouldn't go that far
Crosstalk: How serious is WRC, is that even a discussion we need to have, WRC format is great balance between game count and top end player ranking
David: So is their concerns an uncomfortable topic for anyone so do we let this through
Crosstalk: the "math" of WRC scramble and topcut, country quotas vs just the best players
David: Let's stay on topic.
Edwin: What's their issue? What kind of thing is WRC super seious or just for fun?
Luke: We dont get to pick what WRC is. WRC is WRC. It's great. Why are we talking about this?
David: To see if NAO giving a straight seat is terrible
Crosstalk: Does anyone see an issue? No, dont see an issue, moving on
Crosstalk: What are the dates for NAO
David: Labor day? Also we can't overlap ERMC.
Luke: do we need to be specific to the public as to what days are good?
David: 3 day weekends etc for easist travel
Luke: OK what days can it be, and when is the app due for it
David: ERMC is in summer. Labor Day works?
Crosstalk: what big things happen on Labor Day that could pull people, Pax West and some smaller anime cons
Luke: To confirm, what we are saying is NARMA picks possible weekend or weekends for proposals because they are 3 day weekends. Proposals are due by X for one of those weekends?
David: Yes
Crosstalk
David: We should confirm that its not too close to ERMC with ERMC, but Labor Day, any objections?
Edwin: Also when we announce this, it is way later than MLK since now MLK is too soon, so people's plans for that are unusable. Need to be specific as to why so people who have already submitted don't feel too bad about having to rework
Crosstalk: Agreement
Luke: Any other days than Labor Day that people can pick? So proposals have a choice?
Aldwin: Memorial Day?
Crosstalk: Its sooner, Combo Breaker is during it, it's fine
Luke: Are we fair on dates, are they equal for submission criteria?
David: I'll check on both with ERMC. one might be made
Luke: Is there a preference otherwise?
Bichen: Memorial Day is a big PML thing: Fanime
Luke: That is a major part of the community. Is leaving them out by allowing Memorial Day picks okay?
Crosstalk: No
Luke: Memorial day off the list?
Dave: Yes, unless Labor Day is not possible due to ERMC.
Crosstalk: It's Labor Day unles ERMC says no, then Memorial Day is on the list
Bichen: Juneteenth is a non Memorial possibility. Looking up things near it, it is kinda close to RNO though
Crosstalk: Yeah, they are a big community too, can't put it near that
Bichen: Veteran's Day?
Edwin: Veteran's day has a club event announced, Columbus too, and so on, so it's Labor Day unless you are okay with random 2-day weekends
Bichen: What about Indigineous People's Day (IPD, formally Columbus Day for clarity)
Edwin: PML does IPD event (oct 8th)
Bichen: We'd move our event
Luke: Thats october though, pretty late in the year
Crosstalk
Luke: If Labor Day is probably fine, then check labor day with ERMC. if not, we have an emergency meeting to come back to this.
- Unanimous agreement -
Luke: Next, when are submissions due
Dave: Dec 31?
Crosstalk: Good day, but if somoene gets a venue quote and NARMA takes too long to decide it might lapse, 1 month is standard
Dave: OK we need to select one of the submissions by X date so places know that
Edwin: So it has to be deicded by end of January
Crosstalk on how long venue quotes are held, various amounts based on part of country, but Dec 31 to Jan 31 is fine
Luke: So, then, assuming Labor Day is okay with ERMC: bids for Labor Day 2024, are due Dec 31, and we are selecting before Feb 1st. Right?
Dave: Yes
-Unanimous agreement-
ARML representation in WRC seating quota
Edwin: ARML members have been asking forever, can we get seats, i said I will push for seats on their behalf. How to get that done? Here is my proposal.
Edwin: Explains how it works:
Open Scramble (4 games), then top cut (2 games) where top quarter moves on and bottom quarter is out, then second chance topcut (2 games) for the middle remainder where top half moves on and bottom half is out.
Clear scores, add in B2&B3 players at this point, repeat 1
Clear scores, add in B1&A2 players at this point, repeat 1
Clear scores, add in A1 players at this point, repeat 1
Similar Top Cut style with all players until down to 4, and then finals
Luke: How many games are A1 skipping?
Edwin: 4 + 2 game playoffs minimum per tier, so 18
Luke: The 2 game in-or-out playoffs specifically, how many to open players have to survive before they get to A1 level?
Edwin: 6, minimum.
Luke: Too much of an advantage for those already in.
Luke: In addition, ARML is increasingly unfair to new entrants for a number of reasons.
Crosstalk: Explain
Sidebar
Luke: i've got a lot of talking on this point, Bichen can you handle notetaking / minutes for this section
Bichen: taking notes whole time, all good
Luke: This is not a personal attack. I played in it, enjoyed it, promote it, help as a substitute all the time. The people that put this together should get WRC community seats, That discussion will come much later when we talk about if/how many community seats are available. I think ARML is a good thing. This is based on local players and their experiences with the league, and others I have talked to within League. These players are available to you to talk to if you'd like. This isn't "what is wrong with ARML". These are "reasons ARML does not currently meet fairness/equity standards to be granted seats."
Luke: Two things, first thing is player difficulties.
Based on where you are in the rankings, even playing can be a huge hassle. It is just the player attitude and scheduling of ARML itself. The league has no burden of entry but huge responsibility. You don't see problems at medium-high ranks. Bottom is different story. If you do not have a very open schedule, it's just not possible to find overlap times with others.
Player responsibilities: the people who most want to play spend more time cajoling/ reminding / pleading with stubborn or non communicative players to set up games. It wears you out since you often have to be the one to set things up and you leave. Then the players are down a motivated player before that player could become invested in it.
Player competition differences: When subs needed they are often covering for weaker players. Subs are the most dedicated members. Subs most often cover for poorly-playing or less-caring players in lower league levels. Subs win way more points than they lose, some subs win enough points subbing to promote if they were in the league they subbed int. This is siginificantly unfair for players who have to play the sub not the original player, since all players are jostling for promotion slots.
Divergent player aims: Some people are playing for excellence and some are playing for funzies. Whether you play funzies people packed all onto one table or all spread out is random and can affect your overall outcome. If you get a good farm table at the end, you can promote up from that alone, pushing someone out.
Aldwin: That's mahjong
Luke: No it isn't, it's losing promotion because a -140 player turned into a +120 sub when they play you at the end, and now you miss promotion behind the person who played the -140 person. that's not fair for anyone.
Luke: Next thing is historical advantage.
- first season wasnt one league that became two like the rest of the seasons normal players have to go through, it made four leagues right away. You could be a year ahead based on one season. New leagues are added at the bottom without expanding current ones, making the bottom of the ladder longer and insulating the top. Beginning was just too much of an advantage to give players up top an 18+ game advantage at an event.
David: He is saying the structure of ARML is not good for WRC seat selection. We could start another WRC league to send people to WRC.
Luke: ARML admins are amazing. Exact people to run such a league.
Crosstalk: Two leagues at once?
Dave: I recognize the challenges that you describe. Gonna be nightmarish scheduling.
Luke: Nightmarish?
Dave: Either make a gated WRC league or an open WRC league and then many join and cant play both and hiatuses in ARML. some percentage just burn out. Bottom league becomes a hot mess and a disaster.
Dave: How do we conclude this? Should we make a WRC league?
Luke: Question: Does anyone think a WRC league is a good idea? And that the people who run ARML are good candidates to run it?
Nima: For a future WRC league, it can't be completely open. There has to be some barrier to entry.
Luke: Given some robust enough structure as a magical thing that happens, is that a good idea?
Nima: Yes
Luke: Edwin you have a lot of players in a lot of leagues. If the decision was made to make a WRC league, does that fulfill your want to give out a WRC seat. Knowing that it's way easier to use what we have.
Edwin: ARML is a fairly big commitment. If we are going to announce that, WRC would cannibalize it.
Luke: Position could be frozen?
Dave: Well you'd fracture the league. Imagine if half A1 pauses to do WRC league. You don't have a league anymore.
Crosstalk: Two leagues is too much for many people to do, dont want to hurt ARML with another league
Edwin: Only way to keep integrity of ARML plus try a way for other way to compete was through this type of proposal. It doesn't mean the proposal works.
Crosstalk Edwin/Luke: Early A1 people have too much advantage even if they drop down / leagues are supposed to churn a lot / but they dont
Luke: The low barrier of entry brings in players with lots of different reasons for playing / staying power throughout a season, which can make bottom-league promotion a crapshoot
Edwin: There could have been a higher barrier to entry by charging an entry fee/annual dues, but there has been discussions about it in the Discord where many appreciate the fact that there is no fee and may not have participated otherwise.
Luke: Even like a dollar? What does that say about their level of desire to play in the League?
Edwin: Even if nominal. It always becomes an issue.
Luke: It's good that it's free because everyone can play in it no matter what. But moving forward, if someone has a problem with an entry fee. Are they going to be able to afford to / want to go to the WRC? If they aren't going to go, is basing a WRC seat on that fair?
Dave: People won't pay $5 even though it's only $5. But perfectly fine finding the money to go to WRC or (crosstalk: lists of other hobbies) here. One of the things about events at GENCON is that they are ticketed, so even if they're just a dollar, you are invested.
Edwin: Eventually, could end up that way, but initial entry was supposed to be open.
Crosstalk: This isn't one of the main issues / ARML is legitimate but money makes things complicated
Aldwin: Let's get a conclusion
Luke: If both sides want to talk and have more info, let them talk, no one should be cut off
Dave: We have touched a lot of issues. Look back at initial proposal. Tired tournament. Maybe answer is community vote? Either players spent a lot of time in the league and we put a vote out and it's okay. Or we can figure out a structure for this time around. We would have to launch a new structure. Then we run into some effort or player base splitting.
Edwin: Either that or ARML shifts in that direction and we deal with the fallout from that.
Luke: Is that something you want? If there was a magic wand where you turn ARML to the finder of the best online player in America, losing the players who aren't into that?
Edwin: We cannot afford to have two separate leagues. I don't think we're in a position to do that. By splitting it up, it also can hinder development of those who can't be in the other league.
Dave: We don't feel we have enough online structure to split the league.
Luke: No objection here, you can take "two leagues" is off the table.
Dave: Moving on: are we okay accepting (WRC seat for ARML)?
Edwin: Proposal is to just make it potentially possible to get ARML get a WRC seat
Dave: Despite these arguments, is that okay?
Edwin: Imperfect. Best thing I can think of this at this time. Best way I can currently think of at the time. But can understand that there are enough tradeoffs.
Luke: It is okay to promote your league as getting WRC seat, just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm right, "despite its flaws it should get it" is a valid position to take
Aldwin: Process to change it for just one slot. Looking for some online system to qualify one person.
Dave: We haven't talked about how many seats.
Luke: Regardless of count, should ARML be able to give out seats or not?
Aldwin: I withhold my decision
Luke: Can't you pick yes no or no opinion now? you can change your mind later if something new comes up. We all want to know where we all stand.
Aldwin: I will say yes based on the players on the top end. They're up there because they earned their way up there.
Crosstalk
Bichen: I see the problem with scheduling, if I wasn't in A1, if I started now, I'd never get games in becuase people aren't willing to work with it. Separate from ARML, I would prefer a one/two day online tournament.
Nima: Could strike a balance between a one/two day tournament and a longer league.
Dave: Challenges include identify verification and collusion. Especially with something of value on the line. What are our options?
Luke: Pretty difficult to prove cheating if they've been doing it for years, that's a good point for a league seat
Dave: Everyone's been good about this. The conclusion seems like it's pretty split. If we're split, then it makes it difficult to proceed with this.
Aldwin: Table this for later? It's online after all.
Luke: We have to settle this for at least this WRC, we're running out of time on options if its a "no but fixes make it yes"
Edwin: We do have some time, but I can't just tell them that in May and whatever league you are in Q1/Q2 2024 is your starting point, then they didn't have any heads up to change their rank. If I can't give them the first 2 seasons of next year, then I don't think it's fair necessarily. Can't really drop it in front of people.
Luke: Again, Imagine if ARML becomes the selection process for outputting the best online players for the next cycle. Is that something you want to see in ARML?
Edwin: It wasn't that people wanted ARML seats, they just had other issues with the selection process, and ARML is another option. The prior methods for 2022, people were not happy with.
Dave: We can just release our current circuit idea?
Edwin: People were not happy with the selection process for 2022. Nobody understood the rules were and why and people were frustrated with that. Hey, look, we now have a league. Why can't we just use it to award a seat. Compared to what we had in the past.
Luke: Is that something you want to work on for the next WRC?
Edwin: Certainly, for the next one, we should.
Dave: The challenge for this one is time. Even if there's a way to do it, there just isn't enough time.
Luke: There isn't enough time to start a new one without tons of games. It would just take players out of contention who can't devote that time. WRC is not a grinding tournament. 10 scramble hanchan -> 8 hanchan with 2 hanchan splits.
Crosstalk: It's too close to WRC
Dave: We could do something with ARML for 2028. We're not in a place now where the existing structure is good enough.
Dave: So then, Action item is what an online event would look like. What would a WRC online selection event need.
Luke: I don't have a specific problem with an online event. How much your ARML rating matters is another matter, but we have to see if we even can have an online event.
Crosstalk: Dave will ask WRC what they consider requirements for online seat giveaway
Dave: Does anyone disagree? No. So at this point, we conclude the agenda item on file.
Overall conclusion is that there will NOT be an ARML seat for WRC seat selection in 2025
Crosstalk: Any other business, no, okay move to open meeting
Dave: Closed Meeting adjourned.